Road To Major Fud Improvements Starts With Repricing

OK, I have a good one.

You say the model is oriented by SW to give the cheapest print- and that would mean the shortest height, coupled with the least wax usage. You also say your system recognizes the model's natural planes.

Look at this model... "roof. jpg".

Here's a link to the model (not public or for sale yet) :
https://www.shapeways.com/model/upload-and-buy/6135618

It is built, with one of the long, flat faces sitting on one of the model's main planes. The ONLY logical way to print this model is in the alignment shown below in "4.jpg". A minimum of wax is used to support the print, and only a few small spots on the detailed interior require support. It rests on a natural plane, and if as you say, the system automatically tumbles the model around its axes looking for the best fit, it WILL come upon this orientation.

So, I noticed the pricing was ridiculous... old price $101.47 CDN which was bad enough, now $160.83 CDN. I specifically oriented this model to one of these natural printing planes, so needless to say, I was more than a little suspicious.

I went into the support material tool, and here is what I found... see 1.jpg, 2.jpg, and 3.jpg. below.

Your system has picked the ABSOLUTE WORST orientation possible.

1. It has oriented the model in its absolutely tallest possible position.
2. It has oriented the model in the position that uses the absolute maximum possible amount of wax- not just under the model, but it has COMPLETELY filled the model with wax.
3. There is NO detail to worry about on the exterior of this model, as it is designed to be used with various laser-cut roofing materials. Sanding these outer surfaces would be a snap. So, in your infinite wisdom, you decide to completely fill the highly detailed interior, and DESTROY the surface finish, rendering a possible print unusable?

What gives, guys? This is completely unacceptable. Even properly oriented, this model won't be cheap, but it will produce a beautiful print. However, the way you have it positioned, it will be obscenely expensive and the print will be unusable!

This is why I want the orientation tool to allow us to pick GEOMETRY as the bottom (or top) surface rather than rolling it around on planes that your system decides to invent. It obviously ignores the actual planes and geometry in the model.

Steve Hunter

No that's not accurate as you've forgotten that the footprint is now also included in the cost calculation. Given that it's footprint*height^1.25 it's looking quite likely that the cheapest option is often to orientate to reduce the footprint regardless of the height or support material required.

Mark

After playing round very unsuccessfully with my sprocket model I can see that "footprint" is indeed a big player in the cost game. I tried spruing the two together, breaking them in half to turn the "open" sides upright (less wax needed), and other configurations, only to find the support view stands them on end every time! Naturally that fills the detailed face with wax. Then I tried adding a handle (thanks Charles!), but the result wasn't quite what I was hoping for...

(I know why it failed - the unavoidable central column-bit underneath raises the bulk of the model off the deck, thus adding 2mm of wax under the whole model, so the algorithm ever so kindly flipped the thing over onto its face to remove the offending 2mm thick circle of costly wax. Bang goes the surface detail, and to add insult to injury I get to pay for a tall column of support wax on that handle too! Roll on user-defined orientation...)

One possibly daft question......

How come the support material visualisation takes so long to produce? Surely it should be available as soon as the FUD price is available, as by that point the cheapest orientation has already been selected? Or is the visualisation not linked to the cost calculation on the backend? If so could they end up out of sync?

Mark

Radial arrangement is also a solution.

Roof Shape Example

Steve,

I believe Shapeways print layout is selecting the cheapest price. It is not obvious though, and the roof is a good example. I had to work through my own example to convince myself. An important note, I would not say print layout looks for the model's natural planes, layout uses the X,Y,Z coordinate axis and planes as the model is drawn in the drawing program. The planes of the drawing object can be tilted and turned in any direction compared to the X, Y, Z axis of the drawing. Here are a couple illustrations; the first what I believe you have drawn, and the second a turned version to get Shapeways print layout to orient your model the way you want.



The Shapeways prices for my simple roof 5" x 3" x 1 1/8" are $95.70 Figure 1, and $111.41 for Figure 2 (I am having a fit getting the render images..., maybe later).

But, drawing support material by hand and getting volumes and areas from my drawing program, I have this image to post (hopefully full image is available from thumbnail below):


Using Figure 3 data, the price of support and machine space are as follows,

I still have to completely verify this once I get the renders from Shapeways Print Layout, but I believe this is what has happened in your case. If what I have shown in Figures 1 and 2 above make sense, and Figure 1 matches what you have done, and you have not tried what I am calling "turning", perhaps you will find this gets you what you want. I expect the printed model to cost more.

All the best,
Charles Sloane

Oops, Halfway There (Sorry About That...)

BarkingDigger,

Well, it is halfway there. Perhaps a small vertical addition to the handle will help, a little 1mm x 1mm square on the end extended up and past the desired face of the hub a little over 2mm?

But just the same, as you indicate, just because handles and flags can be added to fiddle with the Shapeways Print Layout, is no reason not to expeditiously finish the user Set Orientation Tool.

All the best,
Charles Sloane

PS, I may try this on my example a little later...

It bugs me that I redesigned several products to optimize them for the new pricing model, only to have them 1) fail to print in WSF and Acrylic despite having done so before and 2) have them oriented in suboptimal ways despite my efforts.

A Flag on the Play???

BarkingDigger,

I don't know if you want to try again, but: (The render was working, and I got some rest I needed.)


The flag on the end of the handle is 2.5mm above the good rim, the hub on the other end is 2mm below the back rim.


And a summary of the drawing arrangements:


The sooner the user set orientation function is done the better. This may work but adds cost and unnecessary extra drawing planning outside the goal of having a finished 3D product for customers!!

All the best,
Charles Sloane

Uh, Ill be doing it with every upload to see if there is anything I can do to improve the print and/or price... Any way of storing it for a time limit and have the system remove it after say 5 working days?

Today I've received a message from a good customer that gets commissioned scale wheel sets in huge quantity.

To make a long story short, last frosted "detail" two wheel sets has been reprinted due to rough surfaces TWO TIMES, but all these parts are rough and unusable in both occassions.

I my opinion, THESE REPRINTINGS are what is costing a lot to shapeways, not the multipart products as some ........ people stated.

WHEN SHAPEWAYS WILL ALLOW TO ORIENTATE OUR FD MODELS TO LET US AVOID THESE DETAIL ISSUES?

THHEY ARE IN A HURRY TO CHANGE PRICING AND KEEP OUT OF BUSINESS A BIG PART OF OUR WORK (BOTH SW AND DESIGNERS ARE LOOSING SALES), BUT NOBODY ARE IN A HURRY WITH THAT!

This is what worries (scared) me...

It's next week already... any news?

Thanks!

Steve Hunter

Hey.

Our team is working hard and making good progress around orientation, but we don't have a confirmed date yet. The ballpark for this release is in the next couple of weeks. We want this out as quickly as you do.

Maybe this helps...

That's great, Henrik, but again, this should have all been done and ready to deploy before the change was even announced. I realize that may not have been your call, but it's something SW leadership needs to be aware of.

The flag extension can flip a ring of parts around too:


The 1mm x 1mm flag post is added to the sprue + 0.5mm of the hub height (as earlier).


As a designer, if you are desperate to help your customer, it works:


All the best,
Charles Sloane